Representation/Sexual Exploitation In the Media

[Mac Sirloin]

So first of all

dis post, dis fucken post mang

Awright, now that I have that out of the way.
I think your perspective is highly skewed towards a version of 'feminism' that exists outside of the realm of actual activism but drifts more towards the 'shitty, loud people on the internet' realm of social advocacy groups.
Your statement that 'Women don't really need feminism' must come from a very ignorant understanding of first and second wave feminism if you have any at all. Splintered and confusing though feminism may seem there are structures within the various denominations of politically involved feminists that are advocating legitimate and constant concerns for women.
Contrary to what you have convinced yourself; Western men have it good. We live like kings and anyone you talk to advocating for 'Men's rights' is a DELUSIONAL FUCKING ASSHOLE and you need to very quickly empty their nauseating ideas out of your head.


Have you ever seen The Expendables or Eat Pray Love? One is a mediocre action film with cheap visual effects that hyperbolizes action movie cliches for fun and profit. One is a self-indulgent wading pool of the need for an escape from a Western society ruled by bumbling, balding ex-husbands. The competition that these two films had is a microcosm of how terrible women in western media are generally depicted.
The females in the Expandables consist of:
Attractive Blonde Biker Chick that leathery bootlike Mickey Rourke treats like a piece of meat.
Attractive Unfaithful Brunette Chick who is physically punished for not choosing the violent-murderer protagonist romantically.
And Attractive Ethnic Chick who can't do anything by herself.
The men are all basically superheroes who can do anything, and also Stone Cold Steve Austin. He gets burned to death. There is no female asskicker amongst them.
This was a film marketed as the ultimate 'guy' movie. A big loud bloodfest to entertain any denomination of assholes dumb enough to fall for the horrible marketing.
Eat Pray Love could arguably be considered the polar opposite of The Expendables in execution, but it can only exist as a piece of positive Female-oriented media by skewing everything into a cartoonish wonderland that can't exist in the real world. It's just as naive and pointless as the Expendables, but it's celebrated because it's an escape fantasy that leaves you feeling nice about pretty ladies.

Gaming is awful. Fuck videogames and the industry that churns them along. It's a corrupt juggernaut of poorly recycled ideas and fulfillment of various violent or social fantasies of one being some misanthropic grotesque. Whenever anyone brings up the 'Well, games really are being marketed more towards women lately.' argument. They've always conveniently forgotten that
A) Women are targeted for mobile gaming and cutesy trite shit like Candy Crush, not 'big boy' games like Skyrim or Fallout.
B) Look at Ivy from Soul Caliber. Look at her impossible cleavage. You think some even-tempered college educated female signed off on that? You think that a middle-aged factory working woman sees that and thinks 'Yup, that's a fair representation of my gender!'
Women are favored for seeming promiscuous and desirable only when it's convenient for men to be seeking one. Things are slowly changing (for the better if you ask me) but little things like The Wage Gap, all those missing Abroginal Women that the Canadian government isn't doing anything about indicate there's a very real indifference to the reality of gender inequality. The western world is ruled by old people, most of them old men. From political figures to the Elderly Voting bracket. And they have no fucking idea what to do with a world that constantly outpaces them at every turn. So they like to fuel the idea that things are better as they are, because they're old and stupid and they can't keep up with the growing reality of inequality at the core of Western society.

Women are still represented poorly in western media, and no quantity of your reading over feminist tumblr blogs is going to change that or justify Mens Rights assholes whining that their elderly mothers don't give them enough allowance.
Here's a great podcast consisting of various quotes from posters on MRA forums. Warning: If you are sensible human being this will probably piss you off.
Adam Corolla Would Look Better in a Burqa
The entire OP feels like someone's sheltered, naive political diarrhea. I suggest you research a point of view that challenges the doubtlessly extremely comfortable lifestyle you are provided.

[Job McYossie]

And I'm not kidding, everyone does it. Men and women, there have been studies on this. When you see a person your eyes will be instantly checking out their sexual attractive regions whether you realize that or not. It's a part of human nature that can't possibly be branded as objectification.

Having that initial thought is fine, there isn't really any control over that. The issue is when people act based on those thoughts. I don't like that someone will see another person and then start treating them differently based on what they see.

Contrary to what you have convinced yourself; Western men have it good. We live like kings and anyone you talk to advocating for 'Men's rights' is a DELUSIONAL FUCKING ASSHOLE and you need to very quickly empty their nauseating ideas out of your head.

Oh yes, me having to stick up for my brother when people start refusing to even talk to him because of his gender really proves that point. Or the fact that he can't get a job because hiring people are trying to get more girls to look like they're equal opportunity workplaces. Or I know! What about how every single argument he has seems to end with "Your opinions are bad because you're a guy."

[Mac Sirloin]

Oh yes, me having to stick up for my brother when people start refusing to even talk to him because of his gender really proves that point. Or the fact that he can't get a job because hiring people are trying to get more girls to look like they're equal opportunity workplaces. Or I know! What about how every single argument he has seems to end with "Your opinions are bad because you're a guy."

So entire crowds of people are giving your bro the silent treatment? I agree with you; What gives? But I can't really follow without any context whatsoever. Maybe tell him to try talking to some other people?
The Laura Secord Chocolates Ice Cream Etc. Emporium in the Belleville mall (Laura Secord is a sort of dairy-oriented eEastern-Canadian phantom that some folk believes posessed cows to decieve Confederate Soldiers into turning over Slaves, it's true fucking google it) only hires women, so I applied for jobs elsewhere. Now I work at a ghost free movie facility full of popcorn and alarming soda. You'd be surprised how many businesses of all kinds require employees.
If someone is telling your brother his opinions are bad because he's a guy it's probably because that person has never heard someone with a penis say anything before in their entire lives. Once again, in what situation was your sibling addressed in the described way?

[Job McYossie]

Part of it could be where we live, I admit. Around the Portland, Oregon, USA area men are usually just constantly hated and really treated unfairly, in an attempt at "equalizim."

[Mac Sirloin]

That's actually pretty funny, I couldn't possibly name a place in the North America that I understand that would do such a thing except for Portland. He should start unicycling. I'm not even exaggerating when I say people will react entirely different to him.

[moxco]

I just want to say that any woman who doesn't want equality isn't a feminist

There are two things I dislike about this statement.

Firstly it irks me when people matter-of-factually state x or y to not be a real feminist. Feminism has no concrete definition and the goals of mainstream feminist movements have changed much over time.

Additionally, I don't think many people consider themselves against equality. Some radical feminist may advocate things which to the general population seem very anti-male, but I won't assume any mean mean-spiritedness on her behalf. What is 'equality' is largely subjective.

[STM]

Someone finding your body attractive should never ever be an insult. Not under any circumstance. The fact that to some people this IS an insult indicates to me that there's something very wrong with our society. And that might just have its roots back in the old morals and values of religion (which did and still does an amazing job at actually and truly objectifying women, by the way. Head scarfs and Burka's anyone? And the bible has its own share of passages that seriously oppress women).

I'll take this bit.

What about when someone threatens to rape you because they think you're attractive? I've had a friend tell me I was lucky I wasn't going to be in Chicago at the same time as him because "I'm so pretty [he] would rape me".

It is my fucking prerogative to choose when to take accept compliments or not. No one has to feel fucking honoured because someone else told them they are pretty, gorgeous, beautiful and I can tell you know women and men can take personal compliments as insulting.

e: Oooh new page, and would you look at the post I landed under.

Firstly it irks me when people matter-of-factually state x or y to not be a real feminist. Feminism has no concrete definition...

fem·i·nism
ˈfeməˌnizəm/

noun.

the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

[moxco]

Yeah, and as I literally just said, the term 'equality' is subjective. I've never heard any self-declared feminist claim to be against equality; though you may consider them as being such. Some feminists are anti-porn, some feminists are extremely transphobic, god knows what opinions the person who coined the term in its modern sense had. Decrying anyone who doesn't share your exact views as being not a feminist is totally non-productive and ultimately an argument of semantics.

[Job McYossie]

How is "equality" a subjective term? It's a very clear term that shouldn't even have a debate on what it means. It comes from a math term, one of the most logical and un-arguable things around. Equality means things are equal, on the same level, or of the same value.

[Phylum]

Responding to a Havoc thre-

Oh, carry on.

[Havoc]

What about when someone threatens to rape you because they think you're attractive? I've had a friend tell me I was lucky I wasn't going to be in Chicago at the same time as him because "I'm so pretty [he] would rape me".

It is my fucking prerogative to choose when to take accept compliments or not. No one has to feel fucking honoured because someone else told them they are pretty, gorgeous, beautiful and I can tell you know women and men can take personal compliments as insulting.

Don't you think bringing rape into this discussion is a little over the top? I mean, come on. Obviously rape is bad, m'kay? And using someone looks or clothing as an excuse to sexually harass them is also bad, m'kay? That is (obviously) not what I was talking about either.

There are plenty of douchemuffins in the world who look at a girl in a tight shirt and short shorts and see the way she dresses as an excuse to grab their ass or throw obnoxious sexual advances their way. Because 'she obviously wants it, right?'. That is objectification. Because there's telling someone they're attractive/hot and there's making assumptions based on said attractiveness.

On the other side of the fence there will even be douchemuffins who will claim the girl is objectifying herself by dressing that way and 'could have expected such responses'. Which, of course, is also complete bullshit.

As for whom you decide to 'accept' compliments from; people can give you a genuine compliment and be a complete jerk about it. Case in point, your friend. The fact that he thinks you're pretty should be a compliment to you. The fact that he then says he'd rape you because of it should make you want to punch him in the face. Doesn't make the original compliment any less genuine, that's just having really (really) bad social skills for the followup of what probably supposed to be flirting (unless you think he's the kind of person who would actually rape you).

[Job McYossie]

Don't you think bringing rape into this discussion is a little over the top?

Bringing rape into a discussion about sexual objectification doesn't seen over the top at all, rather on point.

[Nate]

Is the whole 'real women have curves' thing a feminist thing or is that something different?

It's a marketing statement dressed up to look like feminism in order to sell more clothes/moisturising cream.

(Thanks for that, God)

You're welcome, my son.

...he's two degrees of separation from the Illuminati. Probably.

Come on man, you know the Illuminati don't exist. I'm two degrees of seperation from the Elders of Zion!

[Bullet Magnet]

Someone finding your body attractive should never ever be an insult. Not under any circumstance. The fact that to some people this IS an insult indicates to me that there's something very wrong with our society.

Finding your body attractive is not insulting. It's what behaviours that can cause that are insulting. Various forms of staring, harassment, soliciting sexual favours and so on, from me everywhere you don't even know. This might not seem bad to you, but to someone who gets this every single time they go out in public, from people physically capable of taking what they want, in a society that sees this as normal and will take steps to punish women who stand against this bullshit, it's intimidating and distressing and not okay. Men who do this will rarely stop when asked, and won't take no for an answer. Only the presence of a man will make them stop, or even the statement "I have a boyfriend" when a simple "no" won't suffice, regardless of whether its true or not. Because even imaginary men get more respect than women.

Another thing is that things like breast cancer adverts (warnings, not places to buy your own tumor) are always geared at women, yet you'd be surprised at the amount of men who can get the disease. I've also never seen anything on TV warning men about testicular cancer.

There's this common line of anti-feminist argument that follows this pattern, and I've actually seen it in some of Thunderf00t's videos (not sure if it's the ones you linked to because I really don't want to sit through that disingenuous bullshit again). That where we see listed several valid issues that are faced specifically by men, and there are plenty of them (not as numerous or generally as bad as those faced by women, but they're still there and need to be fixed). And then instead of discussing them as though they were issues that can and need to be fixed, the context is that we put up with out problems, therefore women should put up with theirs. Literally, recognising real problems, then deliberately ignoring them so that they can be used as ammunition in an argument. This is throwing men under a bus so that they can continue to whale on feminism. It is a tactic used primarily by the slimy veterans of the Men's Rights Activism movement, or MRAs, who are entirely about hating feminism and do nothing to help men. They see any improvement for women as making life worse for men. While privilege is, as Joe said, a zero-sum-game, rights are not. We can work on improving life for men an women at the same time, which is ~99% of humanity right there, and the only time a privileged group will lose out when another group gains equality is when they were unfairly profiting on that inequality (not always knowingly), and I've no problem with that loss at all.

[Slog Bait]

Thunderf00t's videos make me uncomfortable

Like, at times he makes legitimate points but then those points get drowned out by his obvious offense at statements that should warrant no offense, the biases he holds when nitpicking at feminists speeches, and his general... way of presenting his points which is always skewed in is favour without presenting the full context of whatever it is he's criticizing

Are there any videos of him deconstructing any male feminists? I've only seen him going after female feminists and using feminist as a synonym for women

[Jordan]

If you honestly believe women and men are treated equally then you have a very warped sense of the world we live in. It's so painfully obvious that sexism is still extremely prominent. The only people who believe that are white straight males who have not had to deal with any form of oppression. I really hate to sound like some Tumblr extremist but anyone I've come across who believes "feminism isn't necessary" have been white straight males. People like that will never understand the plight of someone part of a social minority until they stop being an asshole and learn to face cold hard facts.

It sickens me how the majority of women are represented in media, specifically video games and films. A lot of the time, important female characters are represented in one of two ways: being completely flat and dependent upon men to accomplish anything within the plot; or are vaguely interesting and strong but over-sexualized to fulfill the role of the "hot badass chick". There are crossovers, of course, and some characters that defy these clichés, but these are obviously overshadowed by the cool white dude movies. Anyone who seems to call out this bullshit just gets called an "angry feminist" and their opinion is handwaved.

The thing that pisses me off as much as sexism is people who believe it's not even a thing.

[Havoc]

Yeah, because men are portrayed completely realistic in games and movies like, all the time.

[STM]

And if that upsets you, it makes you a feminist.

[MeechMunchie]

Yeah, because men are portrayed completely realistic in games and movies like, all the time.

Imagine for a second that 90% of men in media were mute, inept little losers who did nothing but stand around and take orders from the nearest woman. You'd probably think that was pretty depressing, right? If you were watching a movie or playing a video game for fun, and the characters representing you were some kind of pathetic shadow of what you actually find admirable? You'd be disappointed or, dare I say, offended.

No-one's asking you to care about decent representation of others on a personal level, but surely you can at least appreciate why people think it's worth complaining about.

[Manco]

Yeah, because men are portrayed completely realistic in games and movies like, all the time.

The difference in the way men and women are typically portrayed in games, movies and other media is that female characters are sexually objectified to titillate men, while male characters are idealized stereotypes that appeal to the male ego.

The muscly macho men in games and movies aren’t designed for the women in the audience, they’re designed for the men to project themselves on.

[Jordan]

Yeah, because men are portrayed completely realistic in games and movies like, all the time.

Regardless of this, they're still nearly always given the most important role in the plot and are represented as the hero, providing a positive role model for the male demographic. However, female characters are mere shadows of this and rely upon cheap, overused stereotypes to garner attention from (male) fans.

[Havoc]

Regardless of this, they're still nearly always given the most important role in the plot and are represented as the hero, providing a positive role model for the male demographic. However, female characters are mere shadows of this and rely upon cheap, overused stereotypes to garner attention from (male) fans.

And the solution to this is... to... make a boring every day housewife the lead character with... some boring bald fat guy who lives alone in his basement taking orders from her?

Seriously, I get what you guys are saying but the only solution to this would be to purposefully bore the game/movie down in an effort to make things more realistic.

Games and movies are be definition meant to be works of fiction. Things that won't happen in the real world and that the target audience can identify with and enjoy. Movies and games that are targeted for men will have the fantasies of men in them. Being a badass, riding a tank, saving the hot girl, causing explosions, killing the bad guys and being the hero. People enjoy this stuff, it's meant to entertain, not to set an example for the real world.

The difference in the way men and women are typically portrayed in games, movies and other media is that female characters are sexually objectified to titillate men, while male characters are idealized stereotypes that appeal to the male ego.

Woah, hold on. You're basing this on the male targeted movie/game point of view. Wanna watch a random chick flick and see what happens then?
Suddenly the female is the lead character who is an idealized stereotype that appeals to the female ego. And suddenly we're not talking about unrealistic scenario's aimed at men, but aimed at women instead. The love interest who sheepishly follows them halfway across the world. The passionate and romantic candlelit dinner scenes. The rose peddles leading up to the bed. And let's not forget the amazing love making scene that no guy on the planet will ever be able to live up to. And in the end the girl always gets the beautiful handsome and charming guy who follows her like a puppy. Awwww.

I'm just repeating myself at this point though.

Movies that are targeted at men will have stuff in them that appeals to men.

Movies that are targeted at women will have stuff in them that appeals to women.

Both will portray the opposite sex in the way the target audience likes to see them. Overly sexy and seductive women for men. Overly romantic and charming men for women. Both are equally unrealistic and there's nothing wrong with that. Because it's fiction and meant to entertain, not to educate.

[Manco]

And the solution to this is... to... make a boring every day housewife the lead character with... some boring bald fat guy who lives alone in his basement taking orders from her?

Seriously, I get what you guys are saying but the only solution to this would be to purposefully bore the game/movie down in an effort to make things more realistic.

Games and movies are be definition meant to be works of fiction. Things that won't happen in the real world and that the target audience can identify with and enjoy. Movies and games that are targeted for men will have the fantasies of men in them. Being a badass, riding a tank, saving the hot girl, causing explosions, killing the bad guys and being the hero. People enjoy this stuff, it's meant to entertain, not to set an example for the real world.

did you literally just reply to the point “women are rarely the lead character in movies” by basically saying “well duh, if the lead were a woman the movie would have to be about housewives and they’d have to make it boring”

did you

Woah, hold on. You're basing this on the male targeted movie/game point of view. Wanna watch a random chick flick and see what happens then?
Suddenly the female is the lead character who is an idealized stereotype that appeals to the female ego. And suddenly we're not talking about unrealistic scenario's aimed at men, but aimed at women instead. The love interest who sheepishly follows them halfway across the world. The passionate and romantic candlelit dinner scenes. The rose peddles leading up to the bed. And let's not forget the amazing love making scene that no guy on the planet will ever be able to live up to. And in the end the girl always gets the beautiful handsome and charming guy who follows her like a puppy. Awwww.

Two points:

1. Compare the number of “chick flicks”* made every year to the number of action movies made in a year.
2. Why is there an assumption that media aimed at men and women has to follow different genres? Why can’t action movies star women or be aimed at women?

*And I’m not even gonna go into how the name for this genre is subtly demeaning.

Both will portray the opposite sex in the way the target audience likes to see them. Overly sexy and seductive women for men. Overly romantic and charming men for women. Both are equally unrealistic and there's nothing wrong with that. Because it's fiction and meant to entertain, not to educate.

Wrong – works of fiction may be unrealistic but people will still see role models, learn morals, and pick up on social cues and body language. Media plays a role in how we perceive and interact with the world.

[Havoc]

did you literally just reply to the point “women are rarely the lead character in movies” by basically saying “well duh, if the lead were a woman the movie would have to be about housewives and they’d have to make it boring”

did you

Sigh, I can't make a single sarcastic comment around this place without it blowing up in my face.

No, I didn't. I'm just saying that guys want to see a guy as the lead character and not a girl.

Why is there an assumption that media aimed at men and women has to follow different genres? Why can’t action movies star women or be aimed at women?

It doesn't have to and it doesn't. Just because action movies aimed at women aren't mainstream blockbusters doesn't mean they don't exist. But that demographic isn't huge, simply because women in general don't like action movies as much as men do.

Hollywood isn't very original or taking big risks with their investments as it is. They're not going to produce movies for a target audience which is relatively small compared to the mainstream ones where much more money can be made.

And I’m not even gonna go into how the name for this genre is subtly demeaning.

Wrong – works of fiction may be unrealistic but people will still see role models, learn morals, and pick up on social cues and body language. Media plays a role in how we perceive and interact with the world.

I told you what they were meant to do. Not what people decide to pick up from a work of freakin' fiction. People by the millions actually believe that shooting a car will make it explode into a giant fireball. Or that if you crash you only have a few seconds to escape before it blows up. That doesn't mean Hollywood should change the way things explode on screen because people start think that's how physics work.

If movies were made to be realistic they would be boring as shit and no-one would go to see them. Because you can see said realism by simply walking out of the movie theater. You can see people acting realistic in the real world. And that's not why you go to see a movie.

[moxco]

How is "equality" a subjective term? It's a very clear term that shouldn't even have a debate on what it means. It comes from a math term, one of the most logical and un-arguable things around. Equality means things are equal, on the same level, or of the same value.

People are not quantitative values they are people. There is not equality in our society, male-dominance is prominent in many environments - how we should try to overcome this very much a matter of opinion.

[MeechMunchie]

But that demographic isn't huge, simply because women in general don't like action movies as much as men do.

[citation needed]

And I'll bet my 1117 DogeCoins that if that is the case, it's primarily because there aren't any made to appeal to them e.g. featuring a female lead.

[Manco]

http://linustechtips.com/main/uploads/monthly_09_2013/post-265-0-66392900-1378350860.jpg

Nice to see you have no legitimate response.

I told you what they were meant to do. Not what people decide to pick up from a work of freakin' fiction. People by the millions actually believe that shooting a car will make it explode into a giant fireball. Or that if you crash you only have a few seconds to escape before it blows up. That doesn't mean Hollywood should change the way things explode on screen because people start think that's how physics work.

If movies were made to be realistic they would be boring as shit and no-one would go to see them. Because you can see said realism by simply walking out of the movie theater. You can see people acting realistic in the real world. And that's not why you go to see a movie.

beep boop all moviegoers are gullible and should just treat movies as i, an unfeeling robot do

It doesn't have to and it doesn't. Just because action movies aimed at women aren't mainstream blockbusters doesn't mean they don't exist. But that demographic isn't huge, simply because women in general don't like action movies as much as men do.

Hollywood isn't very original or taking big risks with their investments as it is. They're not going to produce movies for a target audience which is relatively small compared to the mainstream ones where much more money can be made.

[citation needed]

hahahahahahahhahahahahahaha

[Job McYossie]

People are not quantitative values they are people. There is not equality in our society, male-dominance is prominent in many environments - how we should try to overcome this very much a matter of opinion.

Alright, it sounded like you were saying the meaning of the word equality was subjective, not that the presence of equality in our society was subjective.

And I’m not even gonna go into how the name for this genre is subtly demeaning.

I agree. I don't think a genera should be labeled to a gender, regardless if it is targeted to that gender, as it almost makes it seem exclusive.

And I'll bet my 1117 DogeCoins that if that is the case, it's primarily because there aren't any made to appeal to them e.g. featuring a female lead.

I don't know if I can really be considered part of the group, but I know that I love superhero movies. I don't really mind or care what the gender of the lead character is, but I do find the "damsel in distress" bit uncomfortable.

[Vyrien]

I live for the day when we can play a game featuring a chain-smoking, overweight, middle-aged single mother of 6 from a council estate in Middlesbrough.

[Wings of Fire]

Simfraud 2000

The government sponsored edutainment for our generation.